problematic tag by Nowykowski7 < Journal | Inkbunny, the Furry Art Community

soina

2 years, 10 months ago

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Edited 2 years, 10 months ago by Owner

I keep the opinion that it's just a fictional piece of art so, label it however you see fit :3 as long as it reaches the people you want to target towards.
i see many people stressing over what they must call or label things, that really don't need such effort and worry. much more important things based in reality to be concerned over rather than how people see some tags on a digital image, so support what ever choice you make to tag your art it really makes no difference to me, i have personally never been a fan of cuntboy or intersex sonic, i don't dislike it, it's just cuz its not my cup of tea, (i just prefer dongs! lmao) but i can still appreciate your art because of the quality of it!.

StarAmpharos

2 years, 10 months ago

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@ soina

I second this

Dickface23429

2 years, 10 months ago

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@ StarAmpharos

i third

Nowykowski7

2 years, 10 months ago

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@ soina

I am kinda on the same page as you on the matter, but I have gotten in so many debates about this that I feel like it causes more harm than enjoyment. Especially on Discord and Twitter.
Of course it's valid if it isn't your cup of tea! We all have our interests^^
I apprecite your continued support a lot. People make it so complicated nowadays.

Weiss

2 years, 10 months ago

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The greatest thing about words is that they only have as much value as you personally assign them. Just because a term CAN be used as a slur, it doesn't mean EVERYONE uses it as a slur. That has always been my philosophy especially when it comes to these kinds of subjects. So hey, your art, your choice and if anyone has a problem with that, fuck them

Nowykowski7

2 years, 10 months ago

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@ Weiss

My words, but I have grown tired of the people complaining. Most of the time not even being people of that specific group.
I don't want people to be mad about a niche category I draw.

Weiss

2 years, 10 months ago

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@ Nowykowski7

Let them be mad. These days people will always be mad about something, it's inevitable. Hatters gonna hate as they say. People giving you shit about YOUR choices? Block them and move on, simple as that. Cut the toxic people out of your life.

Nowykowski7

2 years, 10 months ago

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@ Weiss

I usually only do blocking as a last resort if the people really are mean or making me uncomfortable. It's just kinda feels shitty if you wanna draw your fav pairing or franchise, do a very niche category of it and see other artists talk how disgusted they are about the topic and these are part of the community you wanted to interact with in the first place.
Welp, it's always good to have a mix of friends rather than have a bubble of the same.

SassyAfterDark

2 years, 10 months ago

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I don't think you should allow others to have that degree of control over you. It's great that you care so much about not wanting to offend, but what really matters in this instance is intent. I mean, you're drawing highly fictional porn. I think at a certain point it stops being representation and more just silly kinky stuff.

I wholeheartedly respect your decision to use those new tag terms, it's a very mature way to go about things. But at the same time, I also recommend taking a stand and telling people to shove off if they try to claim your work is offensive in any way. I hope I'm clear with what I'm saying here. My communicative skills are dampened at the moment.

Nowykowski7

2 years, 10 months ago

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@ SassyAfterDark

You brought up some valid points. Your speech is on top, I see nothing wrong with it.
It's been a long while since I started drawing this kind of stuff and you learn something new about it every now and then. I figured if I plan an AU with that it would be better to look more into the matter and be more rational about it. It's still fiction, that is very true, but art can cause a lot of emotions or give off a certain message that I want to adapt to this.

SassyAfterDark

2 years, 10 months ago

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@ Nowykowski7

At the end of the day, as long as your happy and comfortable with what you're making, I think that's what matters most.

Nowykowski7

2 years, 10 months ago

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@ SassyAfterDark

Yes, I won't stop what I am drawing and I am happy about it. I guess I am sorta rebranding it? To make it more appealing to others.

Makroth

2 years, 10 months ago

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Good. Not a fan of the word "cunt". It sounds like the word itself hate what it represents.

Nowykowski7

2 years, 10 months ago

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@ Makroth

Yes, I understand the word sounds very harsh and is used as an insult at times. So I choose to distance myself from it.

SonicFan34

2 years, 10 months ago

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Just use whatever terms you want. What's "accepted" today will be offensive tomorrow. It happens all the time.

Nowykowski7

2 years, 10 months ago

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@ SonicFan34

That is what I argued too, but apparently it doesn't matter if it's used in an offensive context somewhere somehow.
But I also do care about the lgbtqia community, as I do not want to alienate them with my art.

WoolyWoosh

2 years, 10 months ago

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Everything's a slur nowadays. Got banned from a Discord server for callin someone a pansy.

Nowykowski7

2 years, 10 months ago

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@ WoolyWoosh

Hmm, what is a pansy?
But yes, I do agree the meaning of a lot of normal words has changed to something negative, or even a slur.

Weiss

2 years, 10 months ago

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@ Nowykowski7

TECHNICALLY a pansy is a flower but the term has also been used as derogatory for an effeminate gay man

Nowykowski7

2 years, 10 months ago

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@ Weiss

You learn something new everyday. I mean it sounds cute, especially if it's the name of a flower, but that it's an insult used towards gay men is a big yikes.

Dgtdgt

2 years, 10 months ago

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Edited 2 years, 10 months ago by Owner

I am of the opinion that intent in the art matters, among other things. If the character fits real intersex qualities, use that. If the character was born in a way that isn't as realistic then use something else. Fantasy stuff stretches the rules a bit and things that aren't possible in reality are thus possible, so our terms for real people should not be your only standard.

In example, while your art does not represent it, for real people them term herm has been used as an offensive slur, but in fantasy and very rare real life cases there are herms. For those cases there just isn't another proper word because that is a shorthand version of a proper, scientific term.

Nowykowski7

2 years, 10 months ago

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@ Dgtdgt

This is a good argument! But people tend to take fiction too serious unfortunately.
With the research and discussions I have come to the point that these two tags are the closest that my art of Sonic shows or the idea behind it.

6MillionthThrowaway

2 years, 10 months ago

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Understandable and agreeable. I think the term does come off as a bit derogatory, considering it uses the word "cunt" and also how it relies on objectification, but I also think that it ends up working best because it is the most used term to describe a male character with a vagina, and as a result, the most practical tag to use in context. When you think about it, not everyone's going to know what the word "andromorph" means (and in the case of e621, taggers often confuse it for "anthropomorphic", but e6's tagging system has more problems than that, let's be fair.) and the term "boypussy" pretty much is only used to refer to a male anus (prison context 'n' all). So I think a compromise would have to be made to create a tag where the average person outside of the community would get it and not confuse it with anything else, but also one that would appease the LGBTQ+ community for not being derogatory.

At the end of the day, though, the majority of drawn work is still fictitious. Especially within the context of your Sonic artwork, it's so far removed from reality that it almost shouldn't even be a question whether or not the tags should affect the subjects. But as long as you're making decisions on your own instead of being peer-pressured from one side or the other to do something, you should only really be concerned with doing what you love and getting your stuff out there!

Nowykowski7

2 years, 10 months ago

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@ 6MillionthThrowaway

Yes, I agree on your points. I figured the term is derogatory, that it causes more harm than enjoyment. I make this kind of stuff for enjoyment, not to spread hate and oppression.
As to not offend the lgbtqia community I figured it would be better to switch to friendlier terms. It's still fiction and not supposed to objectivity any of the members in some way.

Demesejha

2 years, 10 months ago

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Edited 2 years, 10 months ago by Owner

@ Nowykowski7

Thanks IB for responding to the wrong comment lmao

Demesejha

2 years, 10 months ago

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Edited 2 years, 10 months ago by Owner

Its a slur I fought 4 years to get removed from e621. I have the charts and opinion polls to stand by that trans folk hate it. Yeah you shouldnt be using it.

Thank you for being mindful.

WhispersInTheTrees

2 years, 10 months ago

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@ Demesejha

The problem with this is that cuntboys aren't real, while FtM is real. You are equating two things that are not the same. To a casual observer outside the niche, it's an understandable mistake, so I don't understand why those on the inside can't see the nuance.

There are people who are FtM who have fursonas that share the same body as a "cuntboy," as well as MtF characters.

Cuntboys are different depending on who is using them. If you want it to be a trans character that is biologically male / female with a vagina and an otherwise male body, that's 100% okay.

I have never personally considered cboys to be the same as trans. There may be others who do, but that's from a lack of understanding. Cboys are a fetish, trans is an identity. A cboy doesn't exist, trans does.

A cuntboy is a fictional "gender" which exists in fictional universes for the purposes of sexual or aesthetic gratification from the artist / art consumer. There is no such thing as a cuntboy irl, it is a false equivalency.

Frankly, doesn't it make you the offensive one, when you assume that cuntboys are referring to trans people? You're the one who is offended over a non-issue, and consider this niche fetish which has only passing similarities to trans people / characters as actually being trans. You cling so firmly to your politics and sexuality, it's understandable that you can't open your mind and see the nuance, but please try.

Nowykowski7

2 years, 10 months ago

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@ WhispersInTheTrees

That is what I thought too. It's fiction and not real. I don't intend it to be an insult to irl people. Both trans and cuntboys are very different.

Demesejha

2 years, 10 months ago

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@ Nowykowski7

Yeah nah. This is a known slur that has existed alongside other anti trans pejoratives. It stops being about fiction when actual people are harmed.

Even if there was a real distinction to make. People with that body type exist irl who are not trans. Its a thing. And the idea that its "ok" bc it doesnt always apply to trans folks is mental gymnastics

WhispersInTheTrees

2 years, 10 months ago

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@ Nowykowski7

Responding here because I was heroically blocked after they responded lmao. This is why LGBT support is declining among youth. It's been taken over by far-left fascists / communists (is there a difference?) who think that daddy government and corporations should muzzle free speech because "muh bigotry." Genuinely pathetic. Weakest people I've ever seen. Loved the info wars line as well, seems ad hominem is all they can manage. I guess that when I was a young coomer jerking it to the random cuntboy porn, I only did it because I got off on oppressing trans people lmfao.

Demesejha

2 years, 10 months ago

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@ WhispersInTheTrees

"UwU arent you the one being offensive?"

No. Fuck off with the projection idiot.

Im trans. The word is rude. Its a slur. End of discussion. Go crawl back into your infowars hugbox.

DistantWanderer

2 years, 10 months ago

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@ Demesejha

Well thank you for ruining the tags. You just made harder for people to find what they want.

Demesejha

2 years, 10 months ago

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@ DistantWanderer

Youre welcome! Ive done no such thing because the old tags can still be used in search but go ahead with your manufactured outrage.

Nowykowski7

2 years, 10 months ago

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@ Demesejha

Yeah I know, I realized that too. Hence the decision.
I do have noticed the tag got removed on this site.

SonicFan34

2 years, 10 months ago

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@ Demesejha

Oh wow congratulations. /s

Skunks

2 years, 10 months ago

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@ Demesejha

Get a life

Demesejha

2 years, 10 months ago

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@ Skunks

Got one thanks :)

Chinry

2 years, 10 months ago

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That tag will be so people can look up art with that word, but your art should be looked in to for it's quality and the fandom it supports. Being a slur can put it in to fetish category...and if simply it being a fetish is NOT what you're going for, then I understand it's removal.

Nowykowski7

2 years, 10 months ago

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@ Chinry

I want to explore on the matter in my AU, so I don't want it to be completely only for fetish material.
A tag is only a word to find topics you like easier but if it's insulting I figured to let it die out.
I appreciate tho that you rather look at the quality of my work.

WhispersInTheTrees

2 years, 10 months ago

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It's very simple. "Cuntboy" is its own thing. There can be FtM characters that have the same appearance, but still be labeled as trans instead of cuntboy. The nuance is very simple. The only conflict is when politics and personal prejudices mix in.

Cuntboys aren't real, they're 100% fantasy. I was aware of cuntboys before I even knew FtM was a thing at all (I was young). I have never considered cuntboys to be the same as FtM.

A cuntboy is a fictional character that is biologically male, but has female reproductive organs. Easy-peasy. Anyone against the gender binary don't @ me. I don't see why all these labels can't coexist without being labeled as slurs. It's just head-up-your-ass silliness. Use whatever labels you think apply, it doesn't matter in the slightest.

Also I have never once seen cuntboy used as a slur. I can't imagine such an esoteric fetish term being used in a derogatory way in person or online. I'm sure that it has happened, but it's probably rare as fuck. Imagine what an autistic cringe-lord you'd have to be to actually USE cuntboy as an insult.

tl;dr people need to lighten tf up and stop policing speech. I will say what I want and you can't stop me.

Nowykowski7

2 years, 10 months ago

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@ WhispersInTheTrees

There have been people using that term to make fun of or harrass trans people, which I don't understand but some people just like to cause harm bc it doesn't appeal to their own views.
you are right tho, it very much so is fiction and will always be. I just found this specific trait so appealing for Sonic, but I didn't expect it to cause so much harm. I just don't want any more debates over this. I don't want to be seen as transphobic or something.

WhispersInTheTrees

2 years, 10 months ago

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@ Nowykowski7

You're better off growing thick skin about it and ignoring the leftoids. They claim they're anti-fascist, but they use the same tactics to oppress speech they disagree with. The backlash they will face as the zoomers grow up will be massive (but I doubt it will be violent). When you take over a culture and then shit all over it and call it mean and bigoted, and silence innocent speech with childish outrage and corporate control, you breed deep resentment in your imagined enemies.

These people embody the worst aspects of femininity. There are many women in the world who are respectable and honorable, worthy of emulation. But these weak parasites shriek and oppress through the exploitation of empathy. Empathy is for the empathetic, mercy for the merciful. They are a class of slaves, unskilled and pitiful, and their resentment at being abused by a system is to submit to it and use it to bully other slaves. Rather than affect real change and "punch up" they obey their masters and help them to oppress their fellows. Whenever I feel bad about myself I only need to consider their wretched state and I feel better lmfao.

DistantWanderer

2 years, 10 months ago

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Not very happy with the decision. I understand the reasons (specially since you are active on Twitter) but like others have said before, cuntboy is not ftm. and the tags youll be using fron now on are just so generic to the point they lose meaning at the sea of different characters they apply.

Just don't like you changed your artisitc opinion because you were slowly forced to.

Nowykowski7

2 years, 10 months ago

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@ DistantWanderer

Trust me, this decision wasn't easy for me. I just don't want to cause anymore harm. It's better if I adapt it now if I plan to do an AU that includes the concept. I can understand your concerns on the terms and I am not exactly thrilled too, but I just want to avoid anymore confrontations bc I have grown tired of them. I guess you can say I was forced into it. I don't mean any harm.

I definitively won't stop drawing it tho, that's for sure.

WhispersInTheTrees

2 years, 10 months ago

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@ DistantWanderer

This is why everyone hates the cringe-fringe leftists. They bully the innocent and shriek when they don't get their way. They[/] are the real fascists. They're basically nazis lmao.

Faennec

2 years, 10 months ago

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I get what you mean, I once used the term cuntboy in a server because I was new in english and didn't know that's not how everyone calls it and got banned (even tho i'm a trans man myself lol)
so I call it either intersex or trans man or both sometimes, most of my art have all names now (male,intersex, trans) even when the character isn't to avoid any insult and avoid messing with headcanons.

Nowykowski7

2 years, 10 months ago

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@ Faennec

Oh wow, that is hella rude ngl.
It's nice to see an insight of someone who actually is part of the community.
I guess you can't be careful enough with people nowadays. I will stick to friendlier terms now, since I know it DOES make people uncomfortable.

Faennec

2 years, 10 months ago

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@ Nowykowski7

yeah, since the accident with the server, i didn't use the 'c' word again lol let's say I got the lesson, just wishing I had a warning instead of being banned from the server the second I sent the word, even after explaining myself

Nowykowski7

2 years, 10 months ago

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@ Faennec

Maybe it just wasn't meant to be, but you know how overley sensitive people get over certain topics. I hope you are comfortable now with the art you do and found a good friend cycle to hang out with.

SonicFan34

2 years, 10 months ago

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@ Faennec

Getting banned was a blessing in disguise, trust me.

VoodooRoo

2 years, 10 months ago

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I've been around the fandom long enough to have seen this argument come and go. Multiple times. The last time was over the 'cunt' portion of the name. With how much of a focus there currently is on the trans community, it's understandable to not want to fight about it and risk getting 'cancelled.' Get out of the way or get crushed sort of thing.

There are, however, two sides to every argument. I've had cuntboy art done of my character, and I, in no way, shape, or form, consider him trans or any such thing. It's the same character, with a different set of fun parts. That's all. There's no hidden, deeper meaning. I don't have a secret desire to become trans. There's no crazy backstory. I suppose "genderbent" would be the closest next term to use, but I don't feel the need to correct myself to make anyone else happy. I don't really think he fits in any of the current buzzword tags. And I've had to correct people in the past that he is, in fact, not trans. An artist friend of mine goes through the same thing. He has a herm character, and everyone he talks to assumes he's trans or planning to be.

The term has also been around long before the trans community turned their ire on it. Similar to "trap." Which I find ironic, because of the preaching of being open and accepting, but trying to eliminate words that really have nothing to do with that community. I've never even thought of "cuntboy" as referring to trans. Generally trans characters are tagged out separately.

I think a lot of people are using issues like this to suit their own narratives and read into what they want to take away from it. Which as I said already, most of the terms they're crusading against really have nothing to do with them. It's unfortunate when others feel they have to censor themselves because of it just to not draw negative attention on themselves.

SonicFan34

2 years, 10 months ago

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Edited 2 years, 10 months ago by Owner

@ VoodooRoo

Most of them are just karens that want to police others. Being "open and accepting" doesn't have anything to do with you bein"open and accepting" means the exact opposite. You will be forced to be "open and accepting" to approved groups, while outcasting unapproved groups.

WhispersInTheTrees

2 years, 10 months ago

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@ VoodooRoo

Very well put. This is why I hate the fascists that try to police people's speech. They're nothing but pathetic bullies that hide behind authority when there's any heat whatsoever. They're truly broken people, and I pity them.

Nowykowski7

2 years, 10 months ago

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@ VoodooRoo

Ok, that is something I haven't known. I thought the term was made around the time the lgbtqia community became a thing.
I also don't see the connection unless it is stated by said artist. I personally distanced myself from the trans tag completely as it does not represent what I draw at all. I agree that there is no hidden meaning behind it.
I had an argument with someone that said "if they have the genital of the opposite sex they have to be trans, there is no such thing as cuntboy, that's transphobic. be realistic" and such.
I just dunno at this point. I personally don't have an issue with the term as long as it isn't associated with trans. It's just fictional porn.
But as you can guess I have grown tired of this and I don't want anymore drama or debates. So thank you for understanding, I appreciate the great feedback.

Weiss

2 years, 10 months ago

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@ Nowykowski7

I'l say again, if people want to start shit over fiction block them and move on. At the end of the day this is YOUR space and this is YOUR art. If they don't like it they can go yell about it in their little echo chamber that they built up for themselves and their pre approved "friends and allies". I have seen this exact same thing happening over on F-list and it's as dumb there as it is here. People demand words be removed without taking in consideration context, applicability and intent. Asshole can be used as an insult, should people stop using that word completely too, even when referring to that certain part of the body?
(It should be taken into account that I'm by no means against the LGBTQIA+ community, just the loud assholes who act like nazis more than the people they claim to fight against)

DrReverb

2 years, 10 months ago

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I understand your interest to not alienate lgbt. However, many of us don't mind the word. We know it's just fiction. Not like you're calling a real person that. Opinions actually vary among us. None the less, it's your choice and I respect it.

Nowykowski7

2 years, 10 months ago

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@ DrReverb

Of course, it's far from reality and it always will be that way. I'd be concerned for people who actually use it irl for other people.
There will always be people who are for and against it. I will think about it, maybe possibly using it again, but for now I want to try avoiding it.

Jackofak

2 years, 10 months ago

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I don't see why there should be prohibited or problematic words in the first place. The more people care about it the more it turns into a minefield in the public conversations. It's a self accelerated process that leads into a no good place.

Nowykowski7

2 years, 10 months ago

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@ Jackofak

That's exactly how it felt like for me a lot whenever the term was brought up or anything else that is considered " problematic".
And I honestly agree it has lead to no good so far.

Jackofak

2 years, 10 months ago

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@ Nowykowski7

I just think any artist should keep in mind what catering for a certain social discourse (and pandering in general) leads to normalization of that state and settling of specific (and not healthy) expectations. Day after day it will be harder and harder to stay true to yourself.

SumptuousNightmare

2 years, 10 months ago

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It seems like I may be of the minority among other commenters, but I just wanted to write in and say that I very much appreciate your introspection and thoughtfulness regarding this. I happen to be trans, and I've been able to identify with much of what you've drawn of Sonic in the past - to where you're one of my very favorite artists for the character. I understand that these discussions and debates can oftentimes turn toxic and unhelpful, and that many people overstep their boundaries, but nonetheless I appreciate you erring on the safe side in this situation.

Nowykowski7

2 years, 10 months ago

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@ SumptuousNightmare

Oh wow, that's something I didn't expect reading. That's so thoughtful of you.
It makes me super happy to read this!
Sometimes you need to reflect what your actions do to others. I don't like to come off as arrogant and not being able to change for the better.

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