AI doesnt seem so bad now... by sip < Journal | Inkbunny, the Furry Art Community

1 month, 3 weeks ago

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Honestly idk if anyone should have an issue with it if you somehow train an AI on solely your own art. The real issue is training it is tough, you'd need to make sure it's actually comprehending what's going on in each of your pictures and isn't interpreting something in the background as something going on in the forefront of your image. Additionally you'd need a repository of a LOT of images that you drew yourself as reference for it. Not impossible but probably very difficult to do with just one persons art.

missilver

1 month, 3 weeks ago

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@ AsherSketch

I once considered to get AI trained to imitate the art of an artist that completely disappeared (rumored to be dead) around i think the first year models that anyone can use appeared and the process on how it works looked soo confusing and demanding i gave up instantly.

On top of that unless you manage to nail the model prompts exactly perfectly the outcome will always be kind of random. Im no longer suprised when i tell AI that i want standing characters and somehow i still get some that isnt doing that or how it supposedly understands what a meowscarada is but still manages to get the colors wrong.

AsherSketch

1 month, 3 weeks ago

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@ missilver

Yah, it's definitely an issue with training and tweaking the AI a LOT, with a lot of sources that are properly tagged.

Varwulf

1 month, 3 weeks ago

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The idea of monetizing it is a little much for me, I'd feel bad doing that--but saying it takes no effort is a bit misleading. In my experience, the good ones take a lot of fiddling/training to get right :P

firefoxxe

1 month, 3 weeks ago

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AI is really a misnomer, there's nothing intelligent about it. It's nothing more than a predictive algorithm based on probabilities and pattern recognition. There's plenty of tools in programs like photoshop that run an algorithm to do work for you that no one has a problem with because they aren't called AI. When you use AI you are giving it written instructions on what to create and you are guiding every aspect of what it does. If you provide the same inputs it gives you the exact same output every single time. That's not intelligence, it's a set of instructions to perform a specific function. It's your creativity and self expression that guides it, not some internal thought process in the machine. You decide what elements of an image to keep or discard, you decide the image composition and contents. It is your art because it your expression and that's what art is, your expression.

RadioAM

1 month, 3 weeks ago

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@ firefoxxe

So according to your logic, if I squat and take a shit on the ground, and I decided that my perfectly rolled and curled to the side turd is an expression of mine about what I think of your argument, does that instantly makes it art?

celestialjade

1 month, 3 weeks ago

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Well, I didn't loose my hands, but a shock at work left me with some nerve damage. I used to paint, I was an artist, so AI has given my creativity back. Sure, I can be an insomniac on my days off and just binge editing the prompt, but I try to make each image more intricate than the last. AI has gotten me out of a very dark place in my head...

And as for Maple Town... I don't know how to train a lora, but I'll try and see what comes up. I've seen some decent episodes on youtube. I'll grab some screen caps from that.

firefoxxe

1 month, 3 weeks ago

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@ celestialjade

"	celestialjade wrote:
	... I try to make each image more intricate than the last. ...

This right here is the difference between an AI artist and someone just mass producing random images for the cool factor. When you pour yourself into the work to make it everything you want it to be you ARE being an artist and no one can take that away from you.

celestialjade

1 month, 3 weeks ago

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@ firefoxxe

Thanks. It's refreshing to no be bullied or harassed for using AI.

RadioAM

1 month, 3 weeks ago

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@ firefoxxe

Stop calling code scribblers as Artists.

andybunny

1 month, 3 weeks ago

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jokes/sarcasms ^.^

(s) Participation art trophy (brain atrophy) awards for everyone, yay!
There is no such thing as talent they say, everybody can do art now , why are you soo mean to the little poor AI 'artists'?(s)

The good news is that AI soon will help to get rid of all the talking heads on the TV, and hopefully all the hellywood celebrities too. LOL!

AI-powered virtual news anchor comes to South Korean TV:
https://english.kyodonews.net/news/2020/11/5fc3c846c868...

Killereye

1 month, 3 weeks ago

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@ andybunny

AI-powered virtual news anchor:

I have an idea how it could work out. To not endanger real life jobs, have a real person and an AI furry mascot read the news, talk to each other, bounce conversations back and forth. Would be a super fun and interesting experiment. Yet, NEVER surrender control/jobs to AI fully. Let them assist, but if greed and laziness drives the usage of AI, then the future will be gloomy.

KevinSnowpaw

1 month, 3 weeks ago

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Ai art is fine... and it gives people whoa rnt really any kind of artist an outlet for creatively directing the AI to make things they want to see but it's not a replacement for a real artist. It feels...off...no matter how hard I work on a AI picture.. it allways seems off.

firefoxxe

1 month, 3 weeks ago

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@ KevinSnowpaw

It's a difficult tool to use and it takes practice and learned skill to control. Keep at it and keep learning as much as you can about how to control it and you'll find it feels less and less "off." Traditional artists are routinely saying stuff about errors in their works as well, it doesn't matter what tools you are using there is always a way to improve your skills with it and make your works better. Don't let that be a detractor for you though, let it be inspiration to learn new techniques.

KevinSnowpaw

1 month, 3 weeks ago

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@ firefoxxe

thanks for the pep talk though I do still feel it wont replace artist it is a nice tool to have so I dont feel like im entirely depending on artists and what my meager disposible income can fund the creation of. XD

firefoxxe

1 month, 3 weeks ago

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@ KevinSnowpaw

It's not supposed to replace anyone. It's just a tool that helps to provide accessibility to your creativeness and self expression.

druge

1 month, 3 weeks ago

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Edited 1 month, 3 weeks ago by Owner

some of us that make AI images don't consider ourselves "artists". We aren't good at drawing or can't draw to save our lives but we want to be able to show what we have in our heads to others and that is what the image generators allow us to do. There is still some thought and effort put into the image generation however and depending on what you are doing, some amount of photoshop.

If I had to compare what it's like to use stable diffusion to something so others would under stand, it would be a really good camera. You can get something with a quality lens and snap a bunch of pictures, but if you don't dive into it and REALLY learn what each of the settings do you aren't going to get what you want. Knowing what the model you selected can and cannot due, knowing when the model is going to be "overloaded" and start putting out garbage/corrupts the image into noise, knowing what keywords are going to have the biggest impact and change on the output, how is the image size going to effect the output, the orientation (1200x800 vs 800x1200 will give you completely different outputs even if EVERYTHING else is the same), what keywords are going to cause conflicts, how much upscaling can you use before errors start happening, how many steps to use for the render, and this REALLY goes on for a long time.

Can we have images made at an extremely quick and large scale? Yes it can be done but a lot of those images are subpar or have deformities/mutations that make them unusable or would take so long to fix that it's not worth it; and getting the images that look as close to what you have in your head can take a long time.

As a quick example I'm working on a dakimakura/body pillow set (front and back, clothed and nude) for 6-7 characters. This means to get this complete by this coming Friday evening (my normal target time) I need to get 4 good images of each character, so that I'm looking at 24-28 images. Currently I have generated 752 images and have 22 of the images that I need, and I would consider this an easy project because each "finished" image uses a very similar prompt.

If was doing one of the "Story telling" sets that I do from time to time, then every image is going to have it's own unique prompt and challenges associated with it (my largest one that doesn't use a repeated prompt is 15 images and had over 1700 images generated).

EDIT: (forgot to post this in the wall of text). I will always have the utmost respect for those who can draw. I will always consider a drawing better than a generated unless the image is REALLY bad.

picker52578

1 month, 3 weeks ago

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AI drawings are divided into fully automatic and semi-automatic. Fully automatic ones use closed-source tools or services, such as Midjourney or NovelAI. These are indeed able to generate drawings by simply inputting a few words, and are usually relatively perfect, but users You cannot add your own information, and this website does not allow publishing
The other is based on Stable Diffusion, which requires a lot of post-production and modification to produce satisfactory images. The advantage is that users can add training data by themselves.
At present, everyone’s misunderstanding about AI drawing is to use the former to describe the latter, but in fact the two methods are different
In addition, AI drawing may surpass ordinary artists in terms of pictures, but it is far less free than real artists in terms of creative expression and details. It is just that we manually select and post-produce 1% of the successful pictures, and the remaining 99 % are failures.

AI drawing is just a tool. Since it can be so effective in the hands of ordinary people, it is actually even more powerful in the hands of real artists.

celestialjade

1 month, 3 weeks ago

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@ picker52578

I like your tool description. I've reached out to have a commission of Bhavani, and used the AI outputs to inform the final drawing.

I hope that things level out for us, because right now it almost seems like bullying is the thing to do. I hope it is a small minority doing it, but they are incredibly vocal.

picker52578

1 month, 3 weeks ago

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@ celestialjade

What's Bhavani? or who?

celestialjade

1 month, 3 weeks ago

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@ picker52578

She is my tiger girl. My account profile pic is of her.

picker52578

1 month, 3 weeks ago

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@ celestialjade

Oh, I saw it, very sexy girl.

Saglinger

1 month, 3 weeks ago

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Edited 1 month, 3 weeks ago by Owner

AI is a fun toy(I used AI to generate my Discord profile image and phone's wallpaper, but that's it), but I have to say, I don't like it when people monetize AI art, especially with models that were scraped together with stolen art assets.

On a tangentially related note, I find Inkbunny's rules regarding AI and working with 3D models to be logically inconsistent.

celestialjade

1 month, 3 weeks ago

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Edited 1 month, 3 weeks ago by Owner

@ Saglinger

I don't know the rules for 3D art on IB, but I think the AI rules are very reasonable, but parts of the ACP are not being enforced equally. Post your prompt, no artist names (less 25 years dead), open source, publicly accessible (one question I have on this is what to do if a model or lora was accessible but has been removed), 6 image limit per prompt, no commissions/money.

I've seem new people that don't necessary know the rules, and mess up posting. I've sent them a PM and they seem to correct it. I've also heard about someone forgetting the AI tag, I've forgotten it myself 3 times, and instead of sending a PM or comment about it, the "offended" member sends a support ticket. Then will have other like-minded people to also fill tickets on the same problem. Or they post a scathing comment in the image, not something more neutral about tagging, etc.

I've made it a point to thank the 3 people who politely corrected me when I've messed up with a PM.

With how AI prompters are being treated by (what I hope to be) a very vocal minority, I would say that is a violation of the acceptance part of the philosophy and ACP. Unfortunately, correcting this bad behavior would probably ramp up the harassment as revenge on a scape goat, or cause a bit of an exodus from IB, so I'm not sure what the best course of action is...

firefoxxe

1 month, 3 weeks ago

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@ celestialjade

I've only posted 1 image here so far and I was trying to comply with all the rules for what you have to include and forgot the AI tag because I'm new to tagging stuff in general. I never shared things this way before, only person to person through stuff like Discord.

Someone posted a really rude comment on the image threatening to have my account banned over the missed tag. I mean that seems pretty excessive to me for a first mistake and I even have tag suggestions turned on. All they had to do was suggest the tag and I would have gotten the notice that a tag was suggested and that would have reminded me about it right there and it would have been fixed just as fast as I fixed it with the rude comment.

I didn't send them any message and I deleted the comment from the image. I figured it wasn't worth it to take it up with them as it looked like they were just someone that hates AI content in general and wants it removed from all of existence. So it wouldn't be possible to have a rational discussion with someone like that to try to get them to be a little more understanding of mistakes.

celestialjade

1 month, 3 weeks ago

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@ firefoxxe

Just from observation, you would not be banned just for forgetting a tag. Honestly, the "cub" tag is more important than AI, but that is my opinion. A moderator would probably give a verbal warning and point you to the ACP. From there everything is finished. The only ones I am aware of being banned are those who use artist names and hide it, and when being comforted about it are hostile. Or having been corrected several times still go abut violating the ACP. There are mods who are more anti-AI than pro, but in the end they are equally enforcing the rules in that regard.

When I have received a particularly abusive comment, I've locked the comment, and reported it. IB staff then dealt with it. That instance the guy seemed to throw a tantrum and quit IB all together. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes I guess... I may disagree with IB mods in some instances, but I can say they seem to enforce the rules when they are made aware.

firefoxxe

1 month, 3 weeks ago

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@ celestialjade

Well that's good to know. I know the individual that comment on my image wasn't a mod because I went and checked the staff list just to be sure and they weren't on it. So I wasn't worried about the threat, just felt it was really inappropriate to be posting stuff like that publicly when there's other ways that are more discrete.

Farrel

1 month, 3 weeks ago

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Edited 1 month, 3 weeks ago by Owner

To answer some questions.

Yes, you could train the AI to emulate someone's style, and I'm sure folks do that... But I think as long as those folks aren't publishing them, and instead keeping them for their own personal <ahem> usage, that's not so much of a problem.

The biggest thing that AI seems to struggle with, at least in my small experience (I dabble with AI, make stuff for myself and friends) is specifics... The last time I commissioned some art, I was able to talk with the artist and really hammer out exactly what I wanted to see... The image made sense, the characters were correct, and would be consistent if I requested another work.

Stable diffusion at least, is a bucket of art dice. You kick the bucket over and hope there are enough sixes to be satisfactory... Otherwise, you gotta roll 'em again... and again... And the more specific you're looking for? The longer you're gonna be rolling those dice.

Sure, you can feed it a sample image, but unless it's something similar to what the AI has been trained on, it's just gonna throw out randomised garbage for all eternity... Unless you spend the time re-training it. (Which isn't something I've tried yet... Neither have I tried training an art style.)

If you've got injured hands, I very much encourage you to give AI generation a go for yourself... See for yourself what it can do, and what it can't... At very least it'll be fun whilst you recover, and who knows, maybe it'll give you a tool you can work with once you are recovered :)

But yeah, I don't think in it's current state it's too much of a threat to traditional artists.

Oh! And Also, always sign your work ;) That way if people do scrape your art into a training library, the signature will go in too and be a pain in the butt to folks trying to pass off their AI art as organic art.

Edit: Also, seriously, get well soon... Hand injuries suck.

firefoxxe

1 month, 3 weeks ago

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@ Farrel

I wanted to address the "specifics" and "consistency in characters" things here. There are 2 ways I know of to get consistent characters, the first is to train a Lora on a specific character and for that I recommend finding some tutorials on how to train them. The second way is to simply not instruct it to give you specifics, keep the instructions general for the overall picture and then go back adding in the specifics through inpainting or photoshop.

My own OC has some very unique markings that are literally impossible for the models to generate through prompting and I don't have enough images of her yet to effectively train a Lora on her so I instruct it to make a generic fox girl with long purple hair. Every other detail about her is custom done through photoshop and inpainting over the photoshopped image to make sure that the details I'm adding are consistent with the overall image.

This is why good AI images take work to make them good, you have to pay attention to the details and specifically add them in or take them out as needed and it's a complicated process.

Farrel

1 month, 3 weeks ago

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@ firefoxxe

Oh, I am sure there are ways around the specifics, Lora training is one I've been tempted by, and I should probably experiment with doodling blobs of the correct colours I want... and probably perhaps switching out my libraries for something else.

But I have not had an awful lot of luck, for example, in creating a dark brown rat character, at least, not in the style I like... I always seem to wind up with the same neutral brown tones... I have no reference art of her, really, so I have nothing to build a Lora from. (Not strictly true, I could build her, for example, in hero forge and use that as a basis, but I'm more interested in experimenting how close I can get without reference art)

Similarly, any attempt at adding a rifle winds up hilariously poorly unless I alter the generation parameters to a different style... I'd post examples, but I wouldn't be able to meet uploading guidelines.

But yeah, I'm sure there are way around, and I am finding them (Lora training, in painting, re-rendering with specific art styles, etc.) but by this point, we're out of the ballpark of "lazy AI art." and we're starting to go back towards AI as a tool requiring skill.

I'm by no means trying to argue that AI art is a lazy artist's crutch, but yeah, I'm having fun exploring what results I can get whilst being specifically lazy :)

firefoxxe

1 month, 3 weeks ago

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@ Farrel

I sincerely wish you all the luck and fun with your experiments. It really is a wonderful tool to learn the ins and outs of and how to reign it in under your control. It's just fascinating to me.

wollypegger

1 month, 3 weeks ago

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AI art is not new art, it's recycled art, often "stolen" from other artists.

Unless you're feeding it your art.

firefoxxe

1 month, 3 weeks ago

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@ wollypegger

That's a complete misunderstanding of how the tools work. They do not copy other people's stuff. A model is just a set of weighted parameters that helps instruct the algorithms how to process the inputs of the prompts. There is absolutely no image data in a model.

JakStrieder

1 month, 2 weeks ago

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over a year ago I told a friend I liked AI art and told them why I liked it.... they blew up on me and cut ties with me but didn't block me... since then I've been watching them just spiral deeper and deeper now they seem to be leaving the furry community

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Inkbunny

AI doesnt seem so bad now...

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