Welcome to Inkbunny...
Allowed ratings
To view member-only content, create an account. ( Hide )
Norithics

A Primer On Why Artists Are Like This

So you've probably heard about the Piporete thing. Years after the fact, moderation happened on a bunch of their gallery, and they got very upset about it. The rules have existed from the beginning, so despite the slowness to act, it was a fair ruling. So why are people so upset?

Let me give you a little insight on what it's like to be an artist. We make something that everybody wants, but few people truly value. The perception continues that drawing is an "easy" job despite it being one of the most mentally intensive tasks you can take on. You know how your graphics card is always making loud sounds when you play games because it's rendering things in 3D space? We do that with our brains, and it takes a shocking amount of calories and emotional labor to do it. Having grown up on a farm doing hard labor, I can tell you right now that I could work longer outside than I can on a canvas. You can stretch muscles and make them stronger, but your ability to make your brain have more capacity is severely limited.

So people think what you do is easy. What this means in practice is that even if you're very popular and successful, you'll have to work far beneath your worth, for effectively poverty wages, and survive by having roommates or some other accommodation. Don't believe me? Do a simple math problem next time you have the chance. Look at how many images your average artist manages to make in a month. Now think of how much you'd reasonably pay for each. Now add those up and imagine surviving on that for a month.

Yeah.

And that's all just if you become successful in the first place! Ever wonder why artists are superstitious and believe all kinds of things about algorithms? Because being noticed depends entirely on luck. You might just never end up getting somebody else's eye. You might upload at a bad time. You might get swept away by social media posts. The only way to make it is to network with other artists and do free work for years just to get noticed and build up a fanbase– something it is incredibly hard to do by itself, but especially if you're already struggling.

Everything I just said is also only looking at the issue from the strictly business-minded side of things. If you actually enjoy people engaging with and experiencing your work, get ready for a new emotional rollercoaster because this thing you worked on and are making yourself emotionally vulnerable by sharing is at the mercy of random people on the internet. And they don't even have to be meanspirited; otherwise innocent statements like "this reminds me of [more popular thing]" or someone going on an autistic diatribe about a relatively unrelated topic will leave you feeling cold, desperate for any kind of engagement with the thing you actually worked on but being talked past by people who don't know or really care what you need. That's if anybody comments at all, which is increasingly rare.

What's worse is that even if you succeed and manage to gain traction, the dopamine hit of Metrics will eventually stop doing anything for you. Like a drug that stops working, you'll get less and less out of something Doing Numbers because your brain gets used to it, and if you aren't self-aware enough to understand that, then you'll find yourself getting frustrated, not knowing why you're getting less and less out of it. Similarly, as you improve, your ability to see problems improves at a different rate than your actual ability to draw, so you will go through a ton of phases where everything you draw looks like shit and you have no idea why. Then you might snap out of a six-month dead period by being The Most Inspired You've Ever Been, randomly,  for reasons you can't imagine. Being an artist is a lot like being a cultist for an extremely capricious Lovecraftian god, praying and beseeching to some unknown force to fill you with the ability to do wondrous things that fill your life with meaning.

Then there's the other side of the business. You, a statistically introverted person with limited emotional intelligence, must be your own accountant, administrator, PR agent and community manager, and you have probably less than no experience doing any of those things, meaning any of them could blow up in your face at any time. You are at the mercy of services that are cheap or free, because of being broke, and if you're a NSFW artist, just about every platform is just waiting to drop you as soon as they can because payment processors are run by puritanical maniacs. You have to run your own community, and problem actors can come out of the woodwork to ruin the vibe at any time. You should kick them out, but in the back of your mind you worry: "Am I being too harsh? Will people side with them?" And before you know it, their caustic behavior drove off all the people you actually liked interacting with. You kick them, finally, even though it's too late. Or maybe you choose to appoint friends to mod positions! Then you have to hope that people you chose entirely because of their relationship to you, also have the talent to make even-handed decisions while working for you, for free.

So. To recap, you're broke, mentally exhausted, the public thinks you're lazy even though you work more hours than they do, you need others to survive so you feel co-dependent on them, your job is precarious in at least a dozen different ways, asking for commissions during an emergency feels half like asking for charity, and every platform you use is at best indifferent and at worst hostile to you eking out this meager existence, trying to do a little bit of the work that made you want to make art in the first place in between making other people's fantasies come true– a discipline that took you years to cultivate. All this, and random people on these websites ask you all the time for free art; and worse, when you don't give it to them, they call you greedy! GREEDY. It's almost funny, you think, drinking watered down soda out of a plastic cup. You understand, emotionally, the truth of this world: It wants what you can do, but it makes it as hard as humanly possible for you to survive doing it.

And then someone comes along and invents AI Art.

You're panicked. You're confused. You're FURIOUS. AI art?? Really?? They automated THIS before, you don't know, insurance agents??? But yes. Sure enough, some jagoff made a program that steals the aesthetics of artists who render better than you ever will, and everyone around you is ecstatic with the possibilities. Everyone... but you. And when you dare to speak out about it, the defenders come rushing forth. "You don't understand how it works, actually." It works by stealing. "It's not stealing, it's just like how you learn." You kinda think you don't need to see 8,000 pictures of a baseball to draw a baseball. But you don't need to argue the details; behind their post-facto justifications, you can feel exactly what they think:
"We only ever tolerated you because you were the only way to get this. Now we can get it without you in the equation at all, and we're going to progress toward a better future, one without you in it."

So if you've ever wondered why artists seem neurotic and aggrieved and overly emotional? Why we guard our stuff so jealously and feel like everyone's trying to get something from us?

That's why.
Viewed: 996 times
Added: 1 month, 1 week ago
 
Blackraven2
1 month, 1 week ago
I clicked on this worrying - oh no, not another AI rant (says a lot about me that I clicked anyway, but I digress)
but I was pleasantly surprised, there's a refreshing amount of insight in this Journal and its portrayed in a way that actually helps to understand the perspective. And - as a writer I can say - doing so with words is not always easy :)  Well done!
(Edit: Once again I lament the lack of a "fav" button on journals)
worstofbest
1 month, 1 week ago
Thank you for taking the time to share your perspective in this evocative and thoughtful post. It does explain a lot.
df01
3 weeks ago
I wouldn't say it better.
LillyHoundoom
1 month, 1 week ago
This was great.
PantyRanger
1 month, 1 week ago
I mean, you did it.
Summed it all up in one succinct journal.

My big thing is that you don't ask for this.
You start out. You were drawing and doing it for yourself because it was a fun thing to do and than you decide you want to share it with the world.

You hope everyone treats you like they treat each other. Just a average person, but your talents and whatever growth you do get from it turns you into something beyond just a normal human in those people eyes.

You didn't ask for that. Didn't ask for any of it. But that's what you are now to people.
All of it at times . . . it's overwhelming.
Zoichi
1 month, 1 week ago
NGL, that's how I used to look at artists before. And before someone told me I could learn to draw, I always had thought it was something you were born with.
Norithics
1 month ago
Yeah, exactly. The ability to draw does not imbue any of these special skills you need to run a business, to be an online personality, to turn a hobby into a career. It's little wonder so many people crash and burn.
PantyRanger
1 month ago
Yeah!
You're pretty much winging it but no one really notices you doing that.
Instead they just kind of hoist these responsibilities on you and expect you to instantly know what you're doing.
There just has to be a certain level of understanding but that can be few and far between. Tis Rough.

As much as one talks about the suffering through this, somehow I feel like I rather be doing this than anything else.
At least for me, it's all I have, heh. Though I wish their was no suffering at all, tbf.
wallarooblacke
1 month, 1 week ago
You got that right.

I tried to make an AI version of one of my own characters... didn't get it right for squat.

You know what they say, "If you want something done right, you got to do it yourself."

Ditto 3-D rendering, and  anything else.

And what you said summed it up in a very neat package.
JascoeSauce
1 month, 1 week ago
Who's Piporette? :)
Firerush
1 month, 1 week ago
yeah, this, fuck makes me depressed and I'm just a writer

I want to support all the artists I like out there but I still have my own bills and rent to pay so I can only afford so much patronage a month. I wish I could do something to chase chase the puritanical jackoffs out of... well everywhere online or make AI programs stop working, but I just feel trapped
TheDJTC
1 month ago
Yeah, I tried so hard to raise money so I could get the water turned on and like, so many people on every SNS was trying to sell commissions to me and it just really really feels like we're going to be seeing formerly rich people jumping out of buildings soon.

Like we've kinda been in a depression for a while, or I guess the recession that's turned into a depression, but like aunno either they'd better roll out universal basic income or there's gonna be a lot of homeless starving people, but I think the money went into murder robots and fascism.

Like, I've lost touch with a lot of friends cuz they're fighting for their lives working to death. Which with how bad covid's gotten it's like... more than ever losing touch with someone is like "Did they die?"
Firerush
1 month ago
I work a full time job surrounded by people who hate me to pay the bills and try to write in my spare time
TheDJTC
1 month ago
Ah I never could do that, I always have a meltdown and get fired or spiral and like ghost the place. XD;
Firerush
1 month ago
Been working for Wal-Mart 14 years this month, everyone there hates me but they hate the job I do even more so they keep me employed full time so they don't have to train anyone else to do it
TheDJTC
1 month ago
Man that's miserable. Tho I guess every job has politics.
Norithics
1 month ago
Oh, writers honestly have it worse. If people don't value art, they REALLY don't value writing. It's almost impossible to make a career on that stuff even if you go corporate.
Firerush
1 month ago
Yeah, don't think I could, I just want to write something I and others can enjoy. My only current readers are my friends
Firerush
1 month ago
and seeing crap like 50 shades of grey make it big is disheartening
RandalDra
1 month ago
Only got three commissions as writer all from same person
SherryDomino
1 month, 1 week ago
I completely agree with you about the artist. And especially the part about the insurance agents.
JayRude
1 month, 1 week ago
the last paragraph really hit it on the mark for me

it really is dreadful
SassyAfterDark
1 month, 1 week ago
Yeah bring a motorcycle to a marathon and demand a trophy for "winning the race". See how far -that- gets you.

I know that primarily pertains to the AI art part of this whole diatribe. But it's what resonated with me the most.

Sad this shit is happening, but I'm doing my best not to let it break my spirit.
KNIFE
1 month, 1 week ago
You're gift for words has never served you or us better. Thank you for this.
CocoMania
1 month, 1 week ago
👏👏👏
TheDJTC
1 month ago
Yeah, I became an artist, like, considering myself an artist, because of the reactions, because people saw my work and liked it, liked me.

Then the internet changed from a community based world to a performance based world, a world ruled by ads, a world ruled by people who didn't build it.

That and other life stuff, like a big part of me wonders if I didn't have to take care of my family if I'd have finished the comic, if I had never been homeless if MIFaTL would have still been a thing, if Arcadeteam would have still been a thing... if I'd be less handicapped.

The thing that sucks most is I fucking love my art, I look at my old stuff and go "Damn this is good, wish there was more" but it's like, I look at my archives and there's less and less of it and the effort is less and less because damn it's so fucking hard.

You know what's easy? Shitposts. Memes. Sharing shit I saw on twitter. Arguing about stupid bullshit. That makes me feel like I belong, makes me feel like an actual human being. Makes me feel like I'm making someone's life better, leaving a fucking impact.

Aunno. I think you're really onto something. Like, aunno you're more articulate than me at least.

Like it's kinda sad how speaking your heart so others can understand is a skill. Weh.
Trooper036
1 month ago
God, you've summed up so much of the frustration of being an artist in one post. It feels like just yesterday that us artists were looking towards a great future in this field, but then you look back and its been a slow decline for what is probably a decade or more.
So many reasons us artists have to not be super jazzed about our futures.
SenGrisane
1 month ago
You are always able to sum up a theme so concisely. Thank you.

And yeah being an artist is a tough job. It can wreck your body and it can wreck your soul. Especially if you are passionate.

I considered doing art for a living many years ago, but when I did a test run drawing commissions I quickly realised: "Na man. You are not cut out for this."

I didn't actually get enough commissions to sustain me, but even the few I got shot my stress levels through the roof!
I can draw giftart for people no problem, but if I accept money for the task it suddenly becomes such a huge deal in my mind that impacts my ability to draw at all.

There is a reason the trope of the suffering and/or starving artist exists.
Kupok
1 month ago
Correct.
lock444
1 month ago
You hit the nail on the head with all of this.
PinatasNPampers
1 month ago
My god, as a commission artist who normally doesn’t get much takers myself, you really explained this whole situation perfectly.

I’m mostly worried about puritanical overlords taking over the internet as we know it, but there’s just no way we can ignore any of the other problems plaguing us artists all over the world today…
Monolith
1 month ago
I could have seen success in my art of I were able to commit to my work, but life this, job that. You know... But I just want to make stuff. Screw the numbers, rules are rules for every website and if they aren't followed you're going to get slapped. I learned, pipo learned, and so many more going to learn. Art is not hard, making it a business is.
RadDykal
1 month ago
Adding my thumbs up to this.
TwistedDragon
1 month ago
I finally wrangled in my ADHD enough to read everything and it's all so true. I know for a fact that even some of the most successful furry artists have always had to cohabitate to get by since time immemorial. You can do what you love and what you're best at, but you'll barely scrape by at best.

And AI... you hit the nail on the head. I'm sure there's plenty of folks that are frustrated with drawing or don't think they can and use AI to get that same joy we got or get from sharing drawings when starting out. I understand that, but they don't get better at AI. AI just gets better. They'll never truly get that feeling of "Yeah, that's what I saw in my head!", at least not a well earned one. Just download a new set, try it out, fiddle with prompts. And as much as I don't like it and know it's not helping them grow it's fine if they're just having fun. It's those self righteous "Out of the way old man, handmade art is old news, this the future, you're just trying to hold us back because you're greedy and want to keep your power" or something that bothers me. Stealing art, stealing styles, and worst of all hurting the artists they apparently like by taking commissions or setting up patreon/substars and such. I imagine they see the types like Meesh and other big artists and think they must be living the life or something when they have no idea they'll be taking that buffer they had made to survive. It's one thing to trace or draw on the style of an artist and grow from there, share that with said artist and show them how they inspired you. It's another to feed an artist's lifetime of work into a machine, pump out fifty pictures and try saying the same. Hell, masturbation to art is self serving, but at least its some form of flattery, AI just harms. The artists fed to it get choked, the person that could've grown and found out what they could do will only look for better and better tech instead of growing, and those consuming it are taking in the equivalent of junk food. Extra salt, extra sugar, it feeds you but you get accustomed to taking in garbage. Art, real art, isn't technically perfect, but that's what's great about it. Variety, little differences, people growing and changing. It's hard to put into words, especially when I'm typing this all on a phone, but yeah. If they don't get it they don't get it. Some people eat fast food and processed food their whole lives and see nothing wrong with it, I imagine this'll be the same. They eat a great burger made with love and care and still just manage to say "Yeah, it's good. I like burgers." Okay then.
TwistedDragon
1 month ago
Holy fuck, I didn't realize I rambled that much. I do wish IB on mobile was easier to see and scroll through x3 It's hard to truly define art as a concept, so I'll just chalk it up to that.

Well, I tried to edit it to make it more legible but I ran into the 10 minute limit. Fun. Oh well.
Relee
1 month ago
This is a bit frustrating, because I can't bear to read it all, and I want to comment on it but commenting without reading would be terrible imo. o.o;;

I'm sorry Nori, I am posting a comment anyways to say that much at least. I can't tell if you turn it around in there or something, it just hurts too much to read.

There's a problem with our society that people aren't guaranteed to survive and have what they need. You're expected to participate in this broken economic system to prove you deserve to live, and it's not fair at all.

I don't know all you had to say there, but it's never been an issue for me of knowing why artists are upset or scared. I just think it's really unfair to the other people. The great artists who can't make a living because of X reason, and the people who make AI Art programs because they don't make themselves and those folks work hard and need to eat too.

If you accept that artists aren't guaranteed a living or income for their work, and that the successful ones are already standing on the corpses of their peers in an economy that can't support everyone, it feels pretty sour to hear folks dig on their competition. I still find I have to accept it with a sad face anyways, and that's because it's not heccin' fair to anybody. We have plenty of food and places to live and medicine and all sorts of other things that aren't even being used, and folks are being told they need to work for them, when getting paid has little to nothing to do with 'work'.

It's a sick society.

I somehow survive on half of what someone who makes minimum wage in my country would make working full-time. I get that thanks to my disability. That's my job, being unable to work. I actually can work, though, it's more that I'm unable to be employed. That's the rub. I can't tell folks enough about the frustration of being physically able and mentally disabled, but even more, about being able to work but not able to hold a job because the expectations don't match my requirements or capabilities. And at the end of the day, just like the artists, the economy can't support as many people as our society could if we'd only frickin' share and plan and structure things.

Thanks for reading that little rant, I'm sorry if it has nothing to do with what you were saying. The first couple paragraphs and skimming trying to make myself read the sad stuff inspired it.
Norithics
1 month ago
Except the people who made the programs already have money or they wouldn't have had the resources to make them. I know you like AI art and want to defend it, but you can't get around the moral dimensions of it– you just can't. It was made through immoral means and it plays to immoral ends, and you will never convince me otherwise because I am living the results of it.
Norithics
1 month ago
Like, even if this were like Napster or something, at least then we'd be getting credit, fame, notoriety. Maybe the people who built a dam aren't recognized, but at least they got paid for the job. AI art removes even the intentionality from our work; it takes from us and gives back nothing.
Relee
1 month ago
I appreciate your response. I'm pretty mad about copyright, and sometimes it slips out. I disagree that what they're doing is immoral. I would like to discuss that with you, if you're willing. I understand you don't think I can convince you, and maybe I can't. Maybe you can convince me otherwise.

It's rough. I'm not generally an angry person but the constant defense of copyright sets me on fire. There's better ways for our society to work and folks are constantly ignoring the innate harm of copyright.
Norithics
1 month ago
I didn't even mention copyright, which should absolutely be abolished; it's no good at protecting anyone except the exceptionally rich anyway. Anyone who's followed me since at least the late 2010s knows that I've been the most outspoken proponent of chilling the fuck out about letting your art be used for learning, for tracing, for reference; I've lead the charge on letting people draw your characters, your properties, whatever, however they like; I've personally told people they can do whatever they want with my art except sell it and I want to be credited. It's not that I feel no attachment to my work, it's that I make exceptions in being compensated for it because I want other creative people to get to have the journey I did.

And this is by far the thing that drives me insane about the "it learns like you" argument. When somebody learns to draw by drawing my characters, or in my style, or even tracing my artwork, they are making a choice to be like me. They are eschewing other types and kinds of artwork to do things like I do; they are going down a path that contains a limited number of choices and making ones similar to mine. But even more importantly, they are then adding their own soul to it. I get to see something not just like me, but totally new. Something that a unique human being with their own life experiences made, with the inspiration of things that I did, but filtered through their own emotional, historical, personal lens.

The machine... cannot do that. It can't. It doesn't have a personality. It doesn't have preferences or wants or needs, it doesn't even like or dislike anything it eats up in the giant data slurry it consumes; it is completely indifferent. It doesn't learn what the art means or why it's good. It doesn't grow to understand why I made those strokes that way or what makes this composition work. In fact, my work is completely unrecognizable; it stole from everyone, so I'm just another faceless, uncredited nobody, and when it spits out an image that has something great that I figured out how to do, nobody will ever know. Worse, it will be amidst the remains of an aggregated picture where the effect will be muted at best, so not only will they have taken my life's work and turned it into mush– they have robbed the viewer of ever learning there was a better version of that thing they liked, if only they had known who actually did it.

This is the absolute worst of all worlds.

So to be an AI proponent, you'd have to tell me that yes, I am going to have to financially compete with something that cannot tire; and yes, the internet is going to be filled with sludge prompt images that make everything worse and harder to tell what's real; and yes, it will chew up and spit out my work with zero compensation or even doing anything interesting with it, breaking the entire agreement as to why I offered my art up on the internet to begin with; and yes, I will get nothing out of it except anxiety and annoyance; and yes, its utter propagation will in fact drive the value of art in general down, not just financially, but emotionally in the minds of the average person; and yes, technical work that used to awe and amaze will now be seen as "probably AI"... but I'll get...
What?
What do I get out of this?
I don't appear to get anything. The world becomes worse to absolutely no gain.
Relee
1 month ago
You’re right that I was the one who mentioned copyright, though I don’t understand how you think you can/should have control over credit and use without copyright. You actually don’t have it with copyright either, but still, it’s the same ballpark of “I want to control what other people do with copies of something I made.” right?

I think folks should give credit where it’s due, but that it shouldn’t be required. There's situations where you need to use some bit of an idea, and if you can only do so with permission and credits, that means that A) You have to find and contact the owner to ask permission, you have to take time to ask permission, even if you'd get it, both are costing time you may not have, and you may not even be able to find the owner or be sure who owns the work and B) you have to have a place to put the credits. If your work doesn't have your own credits, you really shouldn't have to have someone else's, especially when there's rules for how to credit someone that you can't comply with because your work doesn't have the place you're supposed to do it, and can't.

I don’t think I’m an AI Proponent. I don’t think either of us have the power to stop any of this, and I don’t think you being unable to compete with it at the market is the problem. Being forced to compete at the market is the problem, and folks just aren’t accepting or addressing it. If we keep using the market with no safety net or protections for people, then yes it’s totally fair for them to corner your market by giving people what they want with less work and skill than you have. I don’t think that anything they’ve done is stealing from you, you’re not entitled to success or profits just because you work hard, that’s how this horrible system works. Why is it that when I point that out, folks think I consider this system good? We should do something about it.

Total economic upheaval isn’t likely but there’s other things that can be done even within the system. For a start, when you create art without a pre-existing trade agreement with anybody, it might as well be for-fun and maybe you can turn it into a salable product as long as you can stop others from copying it, which you can’t. A lot of folks take comissions so that they have an agreement, but then you’re using your skills but not making your stuff, you’re making someone else’s.

A better option IMO is to go with the modern idea of crowd-patronage. Draw what you want, but make it clear to folks you need money to live, and hold out your cup each month. The more you get, the more art you can make, because you’re not struggling to survive. If you get overpaid? Win for everybody since you’re a furry and will probably pay other artists yourself. More and better art for everybody. Doesn’t this sound good? I think you should also give away everything you make in this process, so that everyone can enjoy and share it more, so that more people find the art you make and love it and come to support your next month, making more and more stuff without having to control who does what.

My saying is “Life isn’t fair; that’s our responsibility.” and I do think that what they’re doing is fair, but they still can’t compete with you being you, they can only compete with the products you create.


Otherwise to share my own stake in all this, I’ll point out I write kinky stories and write code and these AI Generation tools are way better at writing prose and code. Well, you write too, and you’re pretty darn good at it. I don’t know if you’ve tried making money on that like your illustrations.

I hope this makes my point of view make more sense. I don’t want anyone to starve or suffer, I just don’t think the problem is AI Generation, but the hoarding and portioning of what should be plentiful resources such as food and shelter.

So given that, do you think this AI Generation would still be a problem if you didn't have to compete with it to live?
Relee
1 month ago
I was out of words but I'll keep this short because I just wanted to say thanks again for your reply. I know this is a heavy issue and I feel emotional when I write about it, I imagine you do too. I also like you and respect you so I hope I don't lose your respect from my POV. Most folks don't talk with me about this at all, so I appreciate even this.
Relee
4 weeks, 1 day ago
I was just getting up and I realized I wrote all that yesterday, trying to address your points, but I never really said what I'm talking about or trying to argue.

I am bothered by the dehumanization of people who make and use generator tools, and I wanted to argue against the idea that the creation and use of them is immoral. I don't think what folks are doing with them is any worse than what artists are pressed into by our messed up economic system. That's why so much of what I said was complaining about economics; that and I wanted to press that I am sympathetic to artists because they deserve more. We all do.
Norithics
4 weeks, 1 day ago
Moving back down the thread so the margins aren't so tight.

This isn't just an economic problem, and I'm going to tell you why with an example.

Imagine for a moment that AI has advanced enough that you can ask a computer to make an entire video game to your exact specifications... and it does. You played it, and it was just... brilliant. The best thing you've ever played, no contest. The jokes landed perfectly, the drama brought you to tears, the final battle was so unbelievably exciting you could burst.

What would you want to do next? Well, you'd obviously want to share that experience with somebody! But... why would they want to play it? They have a computer that can make any game to their specifications– or movie, or anything! They have no reason to share this experience with you; even if they wanted to be nice about it, they'd probably just defer it over and over until you get the feeling they're just never going to play it, because they already have their own perfect feed of entertainment tailored exactly to them.

"Alright, I'll play your favorite game if you play mine," you bargain. They're annoyed, but agree, because they too want to talk about their favorite game. But to your dismay, you find that their favorite game pales in comparison to yours, because of course it was made for them, not you. You can barely muster any enthusiasm about it, because your dopamine receptors have been burned out by the stream of perfect media made just for you, so now anything that isn't made to wow you doesn't move the needle... and the feeling is mutual. You leave the encounter frustrated and more alone than ever as you both go back to your perfectly curated feeds.

You try to find other people to talk about this game, to get them to play it, but you run into the same problem. You're going crazy, you just want someone else to talk about this amazing game with... but nobody else even knows it exists, because it's one in a sea of trillions of games that have been instantly generated. You think "Okay I have to talk to the creators! I want to hear from them how they made the decisions they did, the jokes, the final battle, I–" and then you realize there were no creators. You ask the computer why it made the creative decisions it did, and it responds "Because you asked me to."

And that's to say nothing of if you wanted to MAKE something! God, who would ever see it? Who would ever care?? It's lost in the deluge of billions of full motion pictures made every day.

Pleasure is something that your brain gets used to. You eat cookies all the time, they don't taste as sweet. You have sex too much, it gets boring. Art is the same way; if you don't have to wait for it, it has no value, financially or emotionally. And that is why I need people to understand they are walking down the path to hell on a road made of good intentions.
Relee
4 weeks, 1 day ago
It sounds like you're dealing with the philosophical idea of the hedonism trap. It goes a bit further since you don't need to actually have any media interaction. With drugs or technology, you can directly stimulate the pleasure center such that you are constantly blissed out with no effort. If you can set up machinery to keep yourself alive, maybe out in space with solar power? Well, you can just stay that way doing nothing, functionally indistinguishable from an inanimate object, forever.

We're no-where near that with this technology, but it sounds like you're not talking about this technology but the very idea of non-human intelligence or AI. This tech isn't that at all, it's just called that. All this does is generate a relational model based on a learning algorithm and input data trained by humans, then when you use it the thing outputs results based on the model and algorithm generated.

In order to create the sort of works you're talking about, we'd need an artificial being of superhuman capabilities. That might be possible one day! We have a long way to go before then. Here's a wild thing though. I'm actually into real AI. I'm not into generative AI, because it's not interesting to me. I just don't like to see the people who make it treated badly or ignored when imo they are doing nothing wrong, or nothing more wrong than everyone else. Real AI though? It falls into the hedonism trap way easier than us. When you have a computer mind, it's way easier to change your values. They don't have to take drugs or get implants, they just set the value of happy to fully satisfied and sit there doing nothing. It's one of the biggest problems I've got trying to figure out how to make an AI that will do anything, or want to do anything. But it also leads me into wondering why WE do anything, or want to do anything, or how we got here. If you go far enough down that path, maybe you'll find something else. As far as I can tell, there's no reason, we just evolved this way as a product of a natural system, and whether we live, die, or bliss out forever, the universe doesn't care, only we do, and only because of how our minds evolved.

I don't think that's really something we can escape. Eventually we'll get the tech for people to do this, and the 'survivors' will be the ones who for whatever reason didn't do it, and won't do it, and they'll pass that trait on to their decendants.

As for a more down to earth situation, why do you make what you do? For yourself? For others? I tend to think of my creation as something selfish, because I'm the one who gets the thing made, even if I share it I got it first, but moreover, nobody is asking me for it. When I look for appreciation from others, that's another thing I want, so it's a selfish thing, right? Probably better that way. If you think of yourself as a gift to the world, where there's something wrong if people DON'T appreciate you and everything you do, well I rather hope that doesn't happen.

Now, you're a bit different from me. Probably, people actually DO ask you for what you make. However, do you really make it just for others? Would you stop entirely if you were all alone?

Given the human need for company, even in people who don't actually like company, I think even if a superhuman AI did create a perfect game, it would be multiplayer.

What do you think?
Norithics
4 weeks, 1 day ago
Yeah we "had a long way to go" before we got where we are now, too. That's why I'm saying all this; we never know how quickly the next thing will come, and I'd rather people not be pollyannish, pie-in-the-sky optimists about ruining something we do for leisure inside of the capitalist hellscape we have not yet escaped. This endless optimism for technology's promise is what got us all the rest of these tech bro nightmares like Unregulated Hotels, Unregulated Taxis and Unregulated Money. Not to mention Social Media, a Consensus Engine powered by Dopamine Drip which constantly threatens to dissolve society in a Dunbar's Number-induced rage haze.

I get that you're trying to "no ethical consumption under capitalism" this argument, but we all know and understand that there are degrees of this; it's not a blanket amount of harm. Making Ubisoft's prospects worse (a company that fires people when they're done with them anyway so there's no way to protect the workers regardless) is not the same as worsening the prospects of single artisans, and we all know and intuitively understand this. So I just outright reject this idea that I need to massage the feelings of people who either don't know or don't care that what they're doing is harmful; they are not the ones feeling the consequences. If you're going to benefit from something that does this much damage, the motherfucking least you could do is acknowledge it is bad for the people it hurts instead of trying to pretend that it's all just too big to fathom or change when you're simultaneously trying to tell me that we should overthrow capitalism. Either we should be proactive about big problems or we shouldn't, which is it?
Norithics
4 weeks, 1 day ago
*sigh*
Sorry for getting so aggro; this subject pisses me off a lot, and furries especially are very good at compartmentalizing bad things so they don't have to think about them, so I overcorrect. It's why the fandom was a conservative hellscape for so long, and why the moralistic overcorrection has been hell to work around.

Let's see.
Why do I create?
Because I want to see things that I don't see. I want to make things that don't exist right now, that contain ideas that I like, in a style all my own, with my own signature trademarks and quirks. I want people to know me and what I desire, what I think and how I feel through the things I do. I want to challenge people's ideas using the tools of the trade, to make unpalatable ideas appealing through aesthetics and other tricks. I want to draw something so well that an idea that would have repulsed someone if I described it to them will suddenly be just as appealing to them as it is to me. I want to... change the way people think about themselves.

Reasons for me, reasons for other people, reasons for nobody. It's a mix. But it's an inextricable mix; if you remove one part, the whole thing collapses. What about you? What are you trying to do when you make things?
Relee
3 weeks, 4 days ago
Thanks. It's a heavy topic. It's been super hard to deal with when most folks won't even talk about it, insisting they've heard it all before. I haven't heard it all yet so I'd be feeling a bit left out if I thought they were being honest with me or themselves. I really appreciate you talking with me. I'm sorry I couldn't get back to you for two days. Eclipse stuff.

It's rather a point what you said about us having a long way to go before, too. If you're not in this field, it's hard to tell what's going on, and it's so shocking that it could just do anything next. That's gotta be terrifying. Maybe that's part of why I want to know how it works and who does it, though not everyone can just do that. I have a bunch of skills and knowledge I already had that let me understand things that would take a long time for some others.

If we do have sapient super-human AI popping up suddenly, it won't be due to this, but I shouldn't say 'It can't happen' since it can, but it's not really something I expect. Real artificial cognition type AI is something we're barely getting into. Skynet this is not. What it is, is really advanced auto-complete, and tools meant to fill in blanks in damaged images being given a page of static and told it's a sailboat, so they draw a sailboat. They can get better at making individual images, but I don't think they'll solve the main flaw which artists can do. "Could you make it again, but like this?"

Theoretically, you could feed the result back into the program. I've seen ones that use this, they call it 'in painting'. It makes sense, right? It's a tool for fixing damage on an image. Damage the result and fix it. But, that can't turn the figure, or put them in a different pose. There's some things that can be done there, but it's not the same tech and there's no surety. We'll have to wait and see but I don't expect that can be solved without a whole other technology.

Why I create things is a bit of an odd one. I am driven by feelings I don't understand. Sometimes it's that I just want the thing to exist for my own benefit and share it, yes. Most of the time, I don't know why I do it. Given that, you can say that the reason I create is to find out why I created, in retrospect.

When it comes to real AI, artificial cognition, a lot of my interest is philosophical, not only technical. I want to understand thought and existance and choice. It's been quite a trip. I think we only do things because we already exist, from a system of life that wasn't made for us or by us but led to us. I've even posited that we're not life ourselves, but an emergent phenomenon that arose from the system of life. We depend on it, but it has no need of us. It's a scary position to be in, but only to us, who can be scared. The universe, as far as I can tell, doesn't care. We do care, so we do stuff, but we only care because chance led to this situation where we exist. So, the focus really comes down to us.

I would like economic and cultural shifts that would lead to a fairer society for everyone, though folks right now don't agree on what that even is. I'm sorry if I've come off as not aknowledging the pain and suffering you and other artists are going through. I've tried to make it clear I'm sympathetic. I'm just also sympathetic to others trying to survive and thrive in this broken system. It seems like you were trying to figure out a way to either justify discounting the people who make and use art generation tools, or establish them as deserving of suffering where traditional artists aren't. It's divisive when we're all being taken advantage of.

I'm about out of letters, let me cut this in two again...
Relee
3 weeks, 4 days ago
Most art isn't made for-profit. There's a hope for that a lot of the time, but if all the artists went out of business, people would still make art. It's a messed up truth but there it is. I don't think it's something we really have to worry about, though, because I don't support artists because of their technical skill or how much art they produce. Your art is an expression of who and what you are and its value is inseperable from you.

Artists are suffering economically because of the business angles, but you're also right that a lot of folks are suffering emotionally because they think something magical is being snuffed out, or because something they do is being shut down as an economic option for them that they had hopes of doing professionally. The latter one was already there, though. There's a ton of artists who will never make it professionally, and it's not a matter of skill either. Some artists I am fond of have less technical skill than many others. There's more to it than that, right?

When it comes to making computer programs, that takes work and skill and effort too, and creativity. The people who work for corporations are getting taken advantage of, and they are also the ones making these tools. They might make more money than you, or not. It's not fair, so it could be both. They aren't going to make most of the money, because the products they produce are owned by the corporation. The same as an animation studio, really, or a comic illustrator. Each of them put a lot of love and care into their work, and it's important to them. It's not just a paycheque they sold their soul for, any more than you've sold your soul.

I had a big ethical dilemna last year when Starfield came out, and there was a scandal about Zenimax trying to kill a trans employee who worked on it. She survived to tell the tale, but I never heard about her trying to get folks not to play the game. Maybe she did and I just didn't hear it, I dunno. The point is, it occured to me that these capitalist owners are going to 'win' no matter what, but there's no way they took her art out of the game. I haven't gotten around to playing it, but I decided I wouldn't avoid it for their attempt on her life, but if I get it I will play it as an expression of everyone who worked to make it.

Everyone matters, even the capitalist owners, though I don't blame anyone for being mad at them.

Me being upset in all this really comes down to the two things. I'm upset that so many artists are ignoring or dehumanizing the people who make their competition, and I'm upset that so many artists are ignoring the other artists that already didn't make it in competition with them, when they are complaining about their own market shrinking. It's a cruel world.

My saying is "Life isn't fair, that's our responsibility." because random terrible things will happen, and if we don't step up and help the people who got unlucky, it could be us next time, or someone we care about. We're all in this together. So I understand we've all got to do what we need to survive and help the folks we care about. I just wish people could be more respectful of eachother, right?

Anyways I really appreciate that you've gone over all this with me, and thank you for continuing to make your art despite the emotional struggles too. You make great stuff. A lot of your friends and fans do, too. You're a real inspiration.
Norithics
3 weeks, 4 days ago
" Relee wrote:
and I'm upset that so many artists are ignoring the other artists that already didn't make it in competition with them, when they are complaining about their own market shrinking. It's a cruel world.


Boy you really would have saved us both a lot of time by reading my journal to begin with, because it literally goes into that that second part in incredible detail, more than anyone else. All these comments from other artists talking about that, in the comments here.

The reason why I was so mad during this whole conversation is that you've been going on and on about how I should be so considerate of these other people benefiting from exploiting us with no compensation when you literally could not be bothered to even read my grievances in their totality. "I can't bear to read your complaints but here's why you should be considerate." Like, really? Really?? You understand how that looks, right? Getting the benefits of your own thing being seen without giving back? The whole concept I'm mad about? It was a deeply ironic thing to do given the nature of the conversation, that's all I'm saying.
Norithics
3 weeks, 4 days ago
Anyway, I won't ever both-sides this. I can't. One side is getting exploited by the other, the other is getting... called mean names?? Called out for helping us be exploited??? Why get mad at the people crossing picket lines then? They're just going to work, after all.

And that's the end of this conversation. You wanna continue, DM me on Discord.
RandalDra
1 month ago
The joy I get about AI Art is always rewatching Hayao Miyazaki roasting it and the guy pitching clearly looking like a Deer in headlights almost mute trying to explain
DiogenesShandor
1 month ago
Counterpoint: I'm old enough that I still remember when the furry fandom wasn't anyone's job. and Youtube wasn't a job either. And it was even relatively easy to find free programs that weren't just thinly disguised vectors for adware and spyware. But somewhere along the line something bad happened, I'm not sure exactly what or why or how, but somehow the hobbyists were muscled out by professionals and what were once communities turned into marketplaces.

And so, to me, the concern isn't with progress towards a better future, it's with a return to Eden before the fall.
Norithics
1 month ago
Think about what you're saying for a minute. Like, really digest what your complaint is, for just a moment, and think about what that means.

Nobody was in the fandom to make money. Why is that? Well, it's because everyone in the fandom already had money. Money to travel. Money to make expensive hobby items. Money to have a computer back when that was an even bigger-ticket item than it is now. It self-selected for Middle Class and above. After spreading on the internet, and internet access becoming ubiquitous, more people from the Working Poor and below started being furry fans. And we, I'm terribly sorry to inform you, do in fact need money to live.

There was no influx of greedy, careless people looking to bilk people into a niche interest. There were no "outsiders" colonizing this hobby. In fact if anything, due to our continuous status as the butt of every internet joke, furries have always been massively thirsty for outside validation. It is furries who asked anime artists to draw their fursonae with the allure of that comfortable middle class money, not the other way around.
Norithics
1 month ago
Also, professionals being more noticeable than hobbyists will always be a thing that happens in every interest the more it grows; it happens naturally with numbers no matter the nature of the interest. We can see this in sports, as increased participation leads to better competition and better results.

As for communities being harder to find? Largely the fault of social media replacing forums and other atomized forms of communication. When everybody competes for the same eyeballs, it's going to be a free-for-all.
MaxTwenty
1 month ago
Eeeyup. All of that. Not much to add personally, it's about the size of the situation.

...Well, one tangent. Spiralling off how much of a chaotic mess it makes one's perception of their own ability/stability/etc, and this is coming from someone who draws as a hobby only, like, seasonally, it feels like there's a wave of sapped inspiration about the whole thing. AI art clogging feeds and sent over messengers never looks like "Oh, that has something I could try" or "what a neat idea". It has the *smell* of something that both the creator and viewer stopped caring about the second it left their screen, not meant to be understood or replicated or built upon. It doesn't even have the decency to be flawed enough to trigger the feeling "...Rrr this would work *if*: " with all the smoothed, melted rendering meant for nothing to stand out. So like, throw in some more paranoia that it's me using that as an excuse to be lazy and draw less on top of that pile that bounces me out already (ie engagement metrics I want to not care about but they get in there, random as they are) and uh.

Yeah farm work's looking pretty good about now.
NOVFOX13
1 month ago
Yeah I mean family members around me and pure fur that I met at the d and d table do not really understand why I get so bent up about censoring content and stuff even as a non artist I get depressed just watching artist after artist and platform after paltform bite the dust.I feel geniune depression and vehement hatred of americain (and to a far lesser extent my own countries) puritan culture.

Our entire global internet space is being puppeted by a country whos only achievement is being an arms dealer who contributes to nato and who's society lips morals while sitting in the pitiful result of their own failures of prohibition lecturing countries with greater societal moral achievements and functioning systems.

With employment standards bettered by third world countries outlawing of escort work resulting in it becoming a black market littered with sex traffickers following the I outlawed escort work herp a derp now my business is viable dinner bell and we all know about the health care system.

And stuff gets outright conspirational yet horribly true I mean the situation with sweet baby inc pushing diversity serves to prove how far they will go just to control everything we see and hear.

I feel like I am a canary in a coal mine finding more honesty and truth in the arguments of zoofurs and map's as it becomes more apparent our western culture has completely lost it's grip on reality and I am surrounded by people who would regard me as a mad man until the gas hits their bewildered arse and then it will be as if I never spoke.

Oh and E621 where piporette would likely be moving to....yeah kiss that one good bye I know where this is going.

Tried drawing but what I was good at was cubism 2 dimesnsions and everything other then what I wanted to be also it made my brain litterally hurt my particuallar branch of aspergers/adhd is the zero motivation and i am you brain and I will scream at you in pain and freeze if you attempt certain activities.

I would not wish even a slice of that on anyone
angelDX
4 weeks ago
Its getting harder and harder to get found on the site where i have the biggest following, Pixiv, due to AI stuff. Once they rolled out the red carpet for AI stuff to be posted there, they noticed that most of us were blocking the "AI-Generated" tag, so they removed the feature to use a blacklist at all without having a premium account. This floods regular users (and people who refuse to pay for basic features) with nothing but computer generated garbage you have to wade through to find ANYTHING made by a real person. I can be as specific as I can in the tags, but eventually they will all be stuffed full of more AI.
Great read, wish I could favorite journals here.
Norithics
4 weeks ago
God, that sucks so hard. I only go to Pixiv to see what's in my feed, so I don't see it, but that must be hell on discoverability.
Instigmia
3 weeks, 4 days ago
At risk of missing the last point, I kinda feel like this journal entry should be plagiarized for the greater good because plenty of people who need to hear this might be loliphobic (and thus disinclined to listen to a perfectly-reasonable and sane you).
Norithics
3 weeks, 3 days ago
I don't mind. I wish people were more conscious of these things.
New Comment:
Move reply box to top
Log in or create an account to comment.